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I have the great pleasure of having psychiatrist and Internal Family Systems (IFS) expert Dr. Frank Anderson join me on the show for what can only be described as a true BIG TALK.

In this vulnerable and personal conversation Frank shares how IFS personally impacted his own trauma recovery journey and how it transformed the way he works with clients to promote healing.

IFS is a powerful approach that recognizes our minds are composed of many subpersonalities or “parts,” each with its own unique perspective, feelings, and motivations. The goal of IFS is to help these parts release their extreme roles and old burdens (often from past traumas), so they can be in harmonious relationship with each other and with the core authentic Self, restoring a sense of wholeness and wellbeing.

IFS is unique in that it empowers you to be your own healer. The therapist serves as a guide and mirror, but the wisdom is already within you. With practice, you can apply the model on your own and be Self-led in daily life.

For anyone struggling with trauma, anxiety, depression, addiction or other mental health challenges, IFS offers a hopeful paradigm. It reveals that your symptoms and behaviors are not evidence that you’re broken, but that parts of you are hurting and stuck in the past. These parts are not your enemies; they’re your hidden healers.

Through the compassionate, curious eyes of Self, you can help your parts unload their burdens, fully unblend from them, and transform your beliefs and behavior. Your pain becomes the portal to reclaiming your wholeness.

The IFS process takes patience and courage, but it works. You gradually make space inside to welcome home all the hurting or disowned parts of you. Rather than attacking or fearing these parts, IFS invites us to see their positive intentions, collaborate with them, and let them be allies on our healing journey.

Frank so beautifully illustrates that when we’ve truly done our healing work, we can look back on even the most challenging experiences and relationships with profound gratitude. We realize the highest purpose it’s all served in our soul’s awakening.

I hope you’ll join us for this life-changing episode! Witness the radical shifts that unfold when you choose to love yourself like your life depends on it… because it does.

In this episode you’ll learn:

  • What is Internal Family Systems (IFS) and how it can help you become your own healer.
  • How IFS can heal trauma and help you embrace ALL parts of yourself, especially the ones you’ve suppressed out of fear or shame.
  • How trauma blocks love, and love heals trauma.
  • How IFS differs from traditional therapy, and how you can integrate it into treatment.
  • How we can look back on even the most challenging experiences and relationships with gratitude.
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  • Develop a life-changing spiritual practice in just 3 minutes a day with my gabby coaching membership. Try 7 days free!
  • Dr. Frank Anderson is an author, psychiatrist, therapist, speaker and trauma specialist who’s spent the past three decades studying neuroscience and trauma treatment. His mission is to heal trauma and bring more love, compassion and unity to the world. Get his latest book, To Be Loved: A Story Of Truth, Trauma And Transformation.
  • For a deeper dive, check out my books.
  • If you feel you need additional support, please consult this list of safety, recovery and mental health resources.
disclaimer

This podcast is intended to educate, inspire, and support you on your personal journey towards inner peace. I am not a psychologist or a medical doctor and do not offer any professional health or medical advice. If you are suffering from any psychological or medical conditions, please seek help from a qualified health professional.

dear gabby #205 May 06, 2024 emotional wellbeing

healing shame and trauma with ifs therapy: big talk with dr. frank anderson

[00:00:00] The following podcast is a dear media production. Hi there, Gabby here. This podcast is intended to educate, inspire, and support you on your personal journey towards inner peace. I'm not a psychologist or a medical doctor and do not offer any professional health or medical advice. If you are suffering from a psychological or medical condition, please seek help from a qualified health professional.

[00:00:31] All right, Josh, so I'm walking on the street the other day and I see this girl, she comes running up to me and she's like, Oh my God, Gabby Bernstein, I've read all your books. I come to all your talks. I swear by you, I've been reading you for a decade. So she's probably like been reading since I had more ink to your life.

[00:00:45] And I look at her and I'm like, Oh my God, I'm so excited to meet you. And I said, do you have the app? Are you loving the app? And she goes. What app? Oy. Oy. Oy. Oy. And I was like, Oh my God, honey, I can be your coach anywhere, anytime. And I was so bummed out that she didn't know what it was. And so here I am.

[00:01:04] I'm going to scream it from the rooftops. I have an app. I have an app and it is the Gabby coaching app and I can be your coach in your pocket anywhere, anytime. It's easy. It's effective. We have get Gabby moments. I'm really creating this coaching. That's like two minute practices that you can do daily.

[00:01:25] Plus you have deep dive coaching. If you want more meditations, like so many meditations, like what's your favorite meditation in the app? Well, right now it's the spirit guides. But you love that one. I know you do. Mine's the light bath meditation. And so you can have Gabby on the go all the time. I'm your coach.

[00:01:41] I'm your meditation instructor. I'm everything inside this app. And I just want to. Tell everyone in the world to shout it from the rooftops. Get the Gabby app, but you can have it for free. DearGabby.com/. app, dear gabby.com/app. You can totally download the app for free for a week and just try it out and see if it's like a little jumpstart into the app.

[00:02:02] I give you a whole setup of how to test out the different sections of the app and use it. Plus my manifesting challenges in there. Plus my anxiety relief challenges in there. And there's an abundance challenge coming and there's just kind of endless content and endless support. The biggest thing is it makes your personal growth something that you'll actually stick to because I'm there to hold you by the hand, but it's also fast and it's easy and it's effective.

[00:02:29] Dear Gabby.com/app. Go try seven days free.

[00:02:50] Hey there. Welcome to Dear Gabby. I'm your host, Gabby Bernstein. And if you landed here, it is absolutely no accident. It means that you're ready to feel good and manifest a life beyond your wildest dreams. Let's get started.

[00:03:08] Welcome back, my friends. Welcome back to Dear Gabby. Oh, today's. show is so special. It's such a beautiful conversation I have today with my new friend, but a person I've been admiring for several years now. The folks that I studied with, we have kind of like a group family, like we meet up and talk and my IFS family are obsessed with this guy because his name is Dr. Frank Anderson and he really brought.

[00:03:40] You've probably heard my conversation with Dick Schwartz, the founder of IFS. I've got two beautiful podcasts with Dick on the show. And Frank is a friend and a student of Dick and a, leader in the IFS therapy space with really a tremendous focus on trauma. And this guy is so legit, everybody. He is so beautiful.

[00:04:06] He's so vulnerable. His heart is so open. He shares some very intimate details from his traumatic childhood and then shares what he did to get back to safety and how internal family systems therapy really impacted his Transcribed by https: otter. ai Recovery and then I share about how much it affected mine.

[00:04:25] And as you might know, my, my forthcoming book, my 10th book is coming out in December and it's all about IFS and Frank shares about his memoir to be loved. Uh, I have chills when I talk about it. It's just. a beautiful story. It's a heartbreaking story. It's a recovery story. And it is absolutely beautiful.

[00:04:45] And we get into some of it in this episode as well. So if you're someone who wants to open your heart and you want to learn more about IFS therapy, the therapy that changed my life, that's in my next book, my whole next book is about it. If you're just ready to start to find ways to unwind the stories from your past, and you just want to listen to one of the most heartfelt, podcasts I've had, then listen up, enjoy the show.

[00:05:09] Dr. Frank. Yes. Frank Anderson in the house. So I'm in this IFS group. I trained in internal family systems therapy, as you know, and there was a group of us that stuck together after my level one training and we're like buddies fam. Now they meet probably bi monthly. I kind of drip in when I'm free. They rave about you.

[00:05:33] Like you are their hero. And that's how I first heard about you was through. my training, but also through this group of people who are so devoted to internal family systems. I talk about it on the show. And today I want to dive deep into our mutual love for IFS, internal family systems therapy, and really how it has affected you personally with your own trauma recovery.

[00:06:00] That's right. How it has transformed the way that you work. and heal. Yeah. And this new book, To Be Loved, your memoir. Yeah, it's all tied together because I've been on this journey really since six years old. That's when I start, you too, did you see you too? Yeah, that's when, I mean, I didn't realize when I was writing this memoir, like, They said, I think you should write a memoir about your history because you can help people heal.

[00:06:26] I'm like, okay, fine. I have the opening line. Like, I just knew it. It was one of these things. And it was, my parents, I was six years old, went into their bedroom. They're like, you're not going to school today, Frankie. Like, what? Why? Because we're going to the hospital. Like, well, I'm not sick. Why am I going to the hospital?

[00:06:42] And they proceeded to take me downtown Chicago for psych testing. Didn't even know what that was. I repressed most of it. And spend the next six years in therapy weekly. Be normal. To not be who I was. You know, so that really started my journey. of I'm wrong, I'm bad, there's something terribly wrong with me and I have to do everything in my power to fix that so that I could be loved, you know.

[00:07:10] So it was an early and long journey for sure, um, but I'm in such a different place now. I mean, nothing like 33 years of therapy, 33 years, it's been a long journey for me. I'm one of those, like, seekers, constantly seeking. Me too, brother. Yeah. Me too. I think I probably had about 25 years of therapy at this point.

therapeutic journey for our own trauma recovery. And we've both got our towels and now here's yours. Yeah. Beloved book. But what led you to IFS? And I also want to hear in your own words for the newcomer to IFS. I talk about it a lot in the show, but I just want to make sure people hear different descriptions of IFS.

[00:07:56] So how you might define IFS, what it means to you and how you found it. Yeah, sure. So, I'll start with how I found it and then I'll talk about what it means from my perspective. I've worked with Bessel van der Kolk since 1992. I was a psychiatrist for his trauma center way back in the day in Boston. How many years ago?

[00:08:17] 20, 22 you said? Since 1992, so a long time, right? That's what is that? 2030? I was in elementary school, I think. Two years. That's right. I am. I've been doing this for a long time. And Bessel, he's the grandfather of trauma. Like he knows that he's brought it to the map. Body keeps us changed. Body keeps the score for people who don't know who we're talking about.

[00:08:41] Yes. Yeah. Great trauma. Change the landscape. Gate for trauma. That book healed me in many ways, but Right. Carry on . Right? Totally. And next week I'm gonna be at his, I don't know, 46th annual trauma conference. Oh my God. Right? It's amazing. Mm-Hmm. . So every year as a psychiatrist for Bessel at the trauma center, I would do a workshop at his annual conference.

[00:09:00] One year he invited Dick Schwartz. Like, one of the things that Bessel did, Dick Schwartz is a founder, as you know, of Internal Family Systems. Bessel has this way of finding people and bringing them to the world of trauma. I was there, Stephen Porges, the first time he ever spoke. Dan Siegel, first time he is all coming from Bessel, is that right?

[00:09:19] He is the grandfather of trauma. He really is. Wow. Francine Shapiro is the founder of EMDR. Yeah. I was one of the first people trained in EMDR because Bessel met her. It's like, Oh my goodness, Francine, we have to do a study. I was a psychiatrist giving everybody Prozac while my colleagues were doing EMDR.

[00:09:38] And EMDR was more effective than Prozac way back in the day. Right. You know what I mean? Oh my god, you're so cool. I love you so much. Okay. Okay, great. So, so Bessel, you know, every year we do a psychopharm and trauma workshop for his trauma conference. And I think it was 2004, honestly, when he invited this guy, Dick Schwartz.

[00:09:56] And I was like, ah, parts. I F S was a family therapy. I went to the workshop, right? I had no idea. And Dick will say this thing was kind of funny. He's, it was a one day workshop and it was one of those like Oprah aha moments for me. It really was because I had been working with trauma for a long time. I worked with D.

[00:10:13] I. D. Dissociative identity disorder. I was very familiar with parts, but Dick Schwartz was like, you know, we can take these parts out of the past and permanently release their suffering and bring them into the present. Yeah. And that was like a game changer for me in that moment. I was like, nobody has ever said that before.

[00:10:30] And I'm with Bessel and Judy Herman. Like I know the drama people and he had something like that was so different and unique. And I was one of these, like in the third row, right on the side. And I ran up to him during a break. It's like, hello, my name is Frank Anderson. He said, you know, he's like, oh yeah, you were the one that was nodding up and down constantly.

[00:10:49] Like I was like the dog in the back of the car, you know, cause it just resonated so profoundly. It really did. And I did what I do. Gabby was like, dove in. I took every single training, you know, I was on consultation groups. You're like, right. Yeah. When you find that thing that makes sense to you, you dive in.

[00:11:07] Right, right. And I dove in so wholeheartedly. Yeah. And then at some point Dick was like, we became friends and he's like, well, you read a trauma curriculum for me because he was really introduced to the world of trauma through Bessel. Yep. Cause he, you know, Dick has been doing this for 45 some odd years and it wasn't a main trauma modality before.

[00:11:28] And so we really connected at the time. Like these are my two mentors, Bessel van der Kolk and Dick Schwartz. And I kind of shifted away from Bessel and dove into the IFS world in a big way really since 2004. And so I wrote the trauma curriculum for him and have been teaching the trauma training in IFS.

[00:11:48] I don't know, since 2008 or 2010. So it was one of these like, Oh my goodness, like this is it for me. And it did change my life. I had a young child at the time, which we can talk about later, but activated a layer of, Oh yeah. Reverbal trauma. Yeah. Me. Right. That I didn't know it existed after all the therapy I'd been in.

[00:12:08] Right. Exactly. We have such a similar experience of IFS cause I. Well, mine was, I was in IFS therapy and for my listeners who haven't listened to any of our Dick Schwartz interviews or are not familiar with IFS internal family systems therapy, family is not your outside family. It's the family of parts of who you are inside.

[00:12:28] And so we have all these different multiple parts of us. Maybe somebody might've said something like a part of me gets really Outraged when my husband does this one thing or part of me is really apathetic. And so we have these different parts of ourselves that are protection mechanisms from childhood experiences that we've shut down, which are called exiles.

[00:12:46] So that's my little brief overview, but we can, we're going to get deeper into parts and exiles and trauma. We have these parts of ourselves. Dick created this IFS treatment that I had been in for a decade But didn't realize that I was doing IFS So my therapist was trained to IFS and she was practicing it on me and I was so deep in my trauma And in fact half of the therapy I've done with her I didn't remember or know I had the trauma because I remembered at 36 years old Yeah, and so I had a dissociated trauma.

[00:13:19] Mm hmm And so therefore I had a tremendous amount of protection mechanisms, protector parts. Yep. Blocking me from that dissociated memory. And those protectors were, dissociation was one of them. Totally. Cocaine addiction was another one. So all of these different forms of protection. That's right. And at the time I was really resistant to the therapy because I was just so terrified to face into the exiled younger part and I didn't, and I didn't even know it was there.

[00:13:45] Once I started to become aware of the trauma. and a little bit more aware of these parts, I've stumbled upon this Dick Schwartz interview on YouTube. And I started watching this man talking about internal family systems therapy. And as I'm watching this YouTube video, I'm like, Holy s t, that's the therapy I've been doing for a decade.

[00:14:02] Oh my God. And so I go down this YouTube rabbit hole of just Dick Schwartz, Dick Schwartz, Dick Schwartz, just finding more and more. And then very quickly invited him on my podcast. It was around the time that I was starting to write my book, Happy Days, which was my memoir on trauma. And Dick comes on the podcast and I'm like, I want to teach this.

[00:14:19] And he's like, well, I want you to do the training. And so I applied for the training and Dick, now I was on the phone with Dick last night. He's one of my dear, dear, dear friends as it is for you. And he is one of the most self embodied, Yeah. Generous, compassionate humans, one of the coolest guys I know, and has changed both of our lives.

[00:14:39] Yeah. And so we, in the service of his great work, are here to, to, to translate it and demystify it. That's right. And you, my friend, are here to offer it in the trauma space. That's right.

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Then find and book a top rated doctor today. That's ZocDoc.com/Gabby, ZocDoc.com/Gabby. Hello, my friends. Happy spring. Okay. So you know me, you know, I like to sweat, sweat, sweat, whether I'm getting a lot more cardio these days or I'm in my sauna or I'm just trying to get my sweat on.

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[00:18:22] Let's dive in because you go so beautifully into this in this memoir, but also teaching IFS through your story in many ways. That's right. Right. So for you, what was the moment? We know the aha moment of when IFS became the path. That's right. But what was the moment? realization that this was what you wanted to teach?

[00:18:42] Like, how did that kind of become, and also practice? You know, it drove me. I didn't make a conscious decision. I was so compelled by what was going on inside of me. I don't think it was, oh, I want to do trauma for the rest of my life, or, oh, I want to help people. It was really an internal drive. I, you know, I talk a lot about resilience, like, What is that word?

[00:19:05] What is that it factor that people have? I don't even know that we fully understand this drive that I had. I was so affected by things that I saw people that I interacted with. We had a close family member that I talk about in the book who had a psychotic break when they were 14 years of age and it profoundly affected me.

[00:19:26] So I was driven more than decided. Like I'm a very, Sensitive, passion driven person. You are. So I was just, I wasn't deciding Gabby, you know, it was deciding for me because I had so much pain inside of me, but I didn't know I, I learned for six years as a kid to suppress everything. Like, right. So that was my main teacher, honestly.

[00:19:52] So I got into residency at Harvard, working with Bessel van der Kolk and started working with chronically mentally ill people, no insurance, they were homeless. And then again, I was like, I am so, I have to, I have to save these people. I have to help them. So I had this huge caretaker in me and it wasn't until then, honestly, I was in my residency training program.

[00:20:16] I was so overwhelmed by their pain. I couldn't function very well. And you know, in residency, you're supposed to go into therapy your second year, which is when you do outpatient work. First year is inpatient work, right? I was like, I can't wait another second. Like I am in and I dove into therapy. I asked my residency training director, what do I do?

[00:20:37] What do I do? He sent me to therapy and listen to this within three months. I was going five times a week. for 11 years. This is why I clocked a lot of therapy. I was so overwhelmed. And even at that point, I didn't know what it was. And then I was like, Oh my gosh, this is about me. Then all of this childhood stuff started coming up all of very early, like not even memories as much as physical sensations.

[00:21:05] Like I have this one memory of like, Hands over my head, cover your face, cover your face, like you can't hurt your face, right? So, it was more somatic memories, it was more running through the house, like, I just remember the button on the door of my bedroom. Hit the button, hit the button, you know what I mean?

[00:21:25] Watching the hinges in the door, right? So, all this stuff started coming up for me. And then it was like, oh, okay, like the pieces of the puzzle. It started coming together for me in a way that was like, now I understand why I'm so driven here. It's, yes, it's about helping people, but it was so much more about my own journey that I was so disconnected from.

[00:21:50] Yeah. So, I mean, that's what allows you to be, when you're integrated in your own recovery, you can be the greatest dealer. That's exactly right. And you know, like we'll fast forward towards the end of the book because the last four chapters were written in real time when my dad was failing and he was transitioning, and I had a whole different layer of healing and forgiveness that I never.

[00:22:12] Thought was possible going through this experience with him and now honestly, Abby, I would, I am grateful. Yeah. You wouldn't change it. I am so grateful. You know, I didn't wear it today cause I didn't bring it, but I usually wear my dad's watch. Yes. Yes. And I'm like, dad, we're doing this together. Like I could, I would not be sitting across from you right now had it not been for him.

[00:22:36] I have to express something spiritual about that. So, uh, Dr. Wayne Dyer, who was my mentor, is my mentor now in the spiritual realm, but he was my dear friend and mentor, would talk a lot about how his father came into this life as an alcoholic who abused his mother, who took all the money, you know, who made it so that they had no money and then sent Wayne, Wayne had to go into foster homes.

[00:22:58] And Wayne, Let's take a look. So when we've done that healing work, we can have those experiences saying, I wouldn't change anything because I have unburdened those parts of myself. And now I'm free and I can see the path 100%. Right. I want to dive into that. So, so, so a lot of listeners are, have trauma, big T or small T.

[00:23:26] Yes. I mean, everybody really, every human. You got it. And that's why we're here. That's why we're here. That's why we're here. And so from an IFS perspective. Yes. How would you start to introduce the theories of IFS, the pedagogy of IFS to folks who may be new To their own trauma recovery. Yeah, I think about first of all for me in the most rudimentary form Ifs is about self awareness and self connection.

[00:23:56] That's what I think it is that we are so Unaware and disconnected in our lives and in the world. It's like all about the phone and it's all about out there So it's bringing people into this journey of being Self connection, internal attachment. It's repairing the chasm that was created as a result of trauma, right?

[00:24:18] One of my favorite lines, and I say favorite lines, it came out of my second book, Transcending Trauma. Favorite line because it wasn't mine, Gabby. It showed up for me so profoundly was trauma blocks love. Love heals trauma. Yeah. Yeah. Trauma blocks love and connection. And it is in fact, love and connection that heals trauma.

[00:24:38] So my journey with people is to help them reconnect to the severed internal relationships that were a result of overwhelming life experience and to let them be the corrective experience that they never had. That's it. Right. And so people, you know, I kind of say like, if you, We're able to solve this, you wouldn't be here.

[00:25:03] Right. Like, so you tried really hard and you did your best. And what people don't understand, which is part of what I really want this message to be in this book, is that we internalize Everything in our environment, the good as well as the bad, right? And so there's so many people that us and them, I'm a victim, you're a perpetrator, I'm good, you're bad.

[00:25:26] And I'm like, no, I'm sorry, folks. It does not work that way. We internalize perpetrator energy, we harm and we've been harmed. And that's a hard lesson for people to kind of come to terms with, but we can do it in a gentle, loving way. That's right. Right. It's like, and this is one of the things that happened with me.

[00:25:47] So as I help people heal, I'm like, we're going to, we're going to love the parts of you that have been harmed. We're going to give them a corrective experience in a way that they never had. And believe it or not, we're going to also love the parts of you that have harmed. Like, what are you talking about?

[00:26:04] I'm like, no, they do that for a reason. And they've tried their best. They learned how to stop difficult things because they were the recipient of it. Hurt people, hurt people. Hurt people, hurt people. I say this a lot. I'm not, not one to be suicidal, but boy, was I suicidal when I started reenacting the trauma that I experienced from my father with my two boys, right?

[00:26:31] I was like, this is it. I had these kids to have a corrective experience and to give somebody the love that I never got. And for me, with that, All the knowledge I have with doing it for a living, I started doing it. I was like, God, that was when I shot myself in the therapy for a third time. And that's, that's really when in 2004 was the birth of my first son.

[00:26:54] That's when I met Dick Schwartz. And that's when everything really started changing because all of the analytic therapy that I did, the psychodynamic that 11 years, I understood it. I had a concept of it. I got better. But the trauma energy was still in me. Right, so let's talk about that. So the difference between IFS and analytical therapy, and how IFS can, just like you said when you heard Dick say that these parts of you can be healed, that they can be unburdened, that they can thrive, they can have less extreme experience, they can be less extreme.

[00:27:32] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. or not extreme. They can be, they can really be a part of you that really thrives and supports you. 100%. So I always like to give the example of the controller part of me. So at a controller part that prior to being called the controller, she was called the cocaine addict. Yes. And that's right.

[00:27:46] And then, you know, putting on the drink and the drug, she then picked up control because that controlling was a protection mechanism. Yeah. Protector part that kept me safe from feeling impermissible, exiled feelings. So just to really demystify this for my audience. We have these protection mechanisms that are protecting us from facing into these exiled emotions.

[00:28:06] Yes. So for somebody that's now, okay, I've got trauma, I've been in traditional therapy or talk therapy, analytical therapy, and now I'm interested in this IFS thing. What's the magic that these people are talking about? What's the thing that I'm going to experience when I enter into session with my trauma?

[00:28:23] So, With IFS. What's the difference? Well, so the first thing that IFS does, and I think Dick has really, I think information has been brought through him. Oh yes. Right? Yes, he is a divine channel. That our game, our game changer is for many of us, right? And the first concept is every part has a positive intention.

[00:28:43] Right. So this idea of loving your cocaine addict, loving your cutter, loving your suicide, loving your binge, your, that's a game changer for a lot of people because the whole mental health field says, get rid of them. . Like, that's the whole point. So we're saying, no, don't get rid of them. Love them up. So people really need to adjust.

[00:29:01] That's huge to love. Love my binging. Yes. You know, love my suicide. What are you talking about, Frank? I'm like, look at the intention. Befriend your addict. Like what? Yep. Look at the intention, not at the effect. The field focuses on effect, not intent, right? So once people get that, then these let's unpack that for one second.

[00:29:21] Okay. So I'm just going to, cause like, cause like these people are like baby, baby new at this. So intention. Yeah. So what was the intention behind my cocaine addict to push down numb out to hide a impermissible memory that I had been storing for so long. That's exactly right. What was it trying to do?

[00:29:41] That's right. So it had really good intentions to protect me. When you get that, you're like, Oh, sweetie. Oh, exactly. Thank you so much. And then the part relaxes. It relaxes. It's like, who doesn't want to be seen, heard, and known? Yeah. Even our parts do. So that's a, that's a game changer for everyone out there.

[00:30:05] Just like, wait a minute, yelling at my kids is helpful? Like, I'll talk, I talk about that a lot, like, it was so mortifying to be yelling at my kids. However, understanding the terror that got activated in me when my two very rambunctious boys were fighting, it terrified me because I thought, I am going to get killed.

[00:30:28] You know, violence equals being killed. Fighting means you're going to get beaten. So I tried to stop them so that I wouldn't get killed. So terrified and having that awareness is like, Oh, okay. You know, huge, huge as a parent and so huge. Once you do that, like once you have that awareness, it opens the door because you can't get to that vulnerability or the pain without permission.

[00:30:57] Well, what an interesting thing you're saying too, because without permission, let's get to that. But there's such an interesting thing you're saying too, though. It's like the things that. Our kids are such mirrors of our trauma because what is those protector parts? Who are those protector parts protecting?

[00:31:12] The kids inside of us, not the little children in us. So when we see that, I know with my son, I'm so violently, like not violently, but like emphatically like nobody touches your body. No one goes near you. Only mommies and daddies can see your, you know, see you without your clothes on. But, but, but, you know, only mommy, daddy, me, my dad did it like really f ing hardcore.

[00:31:34] Why? I was sexually abused as a child, right? So that, that over, you know, emphasize energy. I have to watch that. I don't want to project that on my kid. I don't, you know, so, but just my awareness of that and knowing that. And so, so helpful as a parent to have that. Now let's go back to the choice, right? So the permission, because We, we don't want to go right in and start connecting to these parts of ourselves that have been in these very valuable roles, right?

[00:32:05] So it's not like you want to go and stop the drinking immediately. I mean, sometimes that is the choice because, you know, you go into AA or whatever it is, but. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We want to have a gentle path inward to these parts. Yeah. If you think of these parts as peopled, which is a, you know, IFS as a peopled model of the mind, you think of them as respectful individuals that are trying their best.

[00:32:29] So you don't want to like barrel over them. Right. Right. Like you want to be nice and kind to them and say, Hey, let's work together. Let's work collaboratively. We're not going to move forward unless you give us permission. But when I understand what you're trying to do, you and I could really reconnect and develop a relationship together.

[00:32:49] Are you interested? Most parts are like, Oh my gosh, finally, somebody's trying to help me. Yeah. Thank you. Right. So then you develop this collaboration. You're on the same team. You're not fighting them. Huge. It's relational. It's internal attachment, right? Then you work together, you with your parts work together and they give permission and access to the vulnerability.

[00:33:14] That's right. They give permission and access to the vulnerability. So you're moving forward in the opposite of trauma. Trauma is a violation of relationship. Here we are supporting relationships. internal support. Okay. I love the, I love you. I just, I can't wait to take one of your trainings, whether I have to do it online or I just, I want to be around you.

[00:33:38] I just, I'm freaking out. So I am because, so I'm always here to be the demystifier and to the simplifier. So, so what you're saying is, We have what's called self and IFS, which is you and you said the you, right? The you. Exactly. You're a resource. Yeah. Compassionate, calm, connected self. Right. And so when the therapist will be that self energy.

[00:34:02] Yes. Oftentimes hold that to be that guiding these parts and helping these parts of you, these protection mechanisms feel seen and heard. Yes. So that when they feel accepted and seen and heard. Yeah. Yeah. they can feel a little bit like their guard is down. Yes. And when that happens gently. Yeah. With permission.

[00:34:24] Yeah. The therapist may guide or you eventually can guide with your, your self energy. That's right. Ask these protection mechanisms if it's safe enough to talk more closely to the younger traumatized. That's right. Parts of us. That are buried underneath who are desperate for help and support, but who have been buried in the service of survival.

[00:34:45] That's right. Right. So once you have that buy in with those protectors, once you have that relationship and connection with them, you're forming a new team to work together. And then we have access to the wounded parts of us. And, you know, one of the things that's so powerful for me is Nothing therapeutic happens when we relive something.

[00:35:09] I agree. Okay, so it's a really important message that I give like, I don't want anybody to relive anything. I don't want anybody to be re traumatized. We're going to do this differently. Are you interested? Right. And it is the being with, instead of in, that is everything here. And it's like going to the gym.

[00:35:30] Right. It's like going to the gym. You have to kind of slowly show up consistently and reliably for parts to trust. Oh, totally. There is somebody here that is capable and competent and let's do this together. It's a long term relationship. It's a long term relationship. You know, relationship takes time to Dick used to say.

[00:35:52] You know, parts just step back and self shows up and I was like, it's happening in my story. Not with my trauma. That is not the way it worked, right? That's it. And, and yes, I am capable of being with the horrific now in a different kind of way, but it's a process. It's a relationship. It's a relationship.

[00:36:11] It's a relationship, you know, and now my parts trust me in a way that they didn't before because they didn't know me. Absolutely. Now, you know, I feel like connecting to self. Yeah, I'm really excited for the listener who's like, whoa, I think this is interesting. I want more Pick up this book pick up to be loved.

[00:36:30] I can promise everybody. I've I've got the the my next book self help is the guide Yeah, really understanding how to relate to your protectors. Not your exiles. I'm not a therapist. I'm not trying to go there That's right. Um, then you go find you find all of the beautiful people out there like frank But frank, this is a big question.

[00:36:46] I personally have yeah, so i've experienced I would almost call it psychosis when I had postpartum depression Yeah Not almost, it was f ing psychosis, and I wanted to kill myself. Some part of you is like, almost, and you're like, No, no, no, it was. It would have taken my life. And of course, and, and medication saved my life.

[00:37:05] Yeah. So I, and IFS, of course. Yes. So I wanted to ask you, like, when you're in a situation where, particularly hormonally, And maybe you, yes, there are medicated ways that can support you, but as women in perimenopause and menopause, and I'm starting to have those extreme, like prior to my period, having those extreme rageful things that also make me quite depressed.

[00:37:27] And even women not in perimenopause have that experience for several days before their period. Sometimes. Oftentimes. How can we see those sort of biochemical parts be in connection with them as parts without overriding the biochemical? Yeah. Because you're a psychiatrist. Like, let's hear this. Really good question.

[00:37:47] And you know, Gabby, I don't talk about this as much as I used to because I used to do all these psychopharm Workshops and conversations, and I wrote a chapter in a book called Who's Taking What? Yes. Integrating IFS with psychopharmacology. Yes. Because what people didn't know, and I learned this quickly working as a psychiatrist with Bessel, you're a white man, and you're going to give medications putting pills in women's bodies who have been violated like that's a problem.

[00:38:18] That's a problem right off the start. So I was like, this ain't going to work this way. You know what I mean? So I started incorporating IFS with psychopharmacology early on in my career. And it was like, I have this four step process, like No, we don't take any medications unless all parts are on board. So you ask everyone, is everyone okay with taking this Prozac or taking this Zoloft?

[00:38:44] Nobody asks. Nobody asks, right? So we want to start asking. And the other thing is that parts block medicines. All the time. Yep. It's like, I'm the one who stopped the trazodone from working. I'm not going to let us sleep. I have to be vigilant, you know? And so they're like, you lost the prescription, guess who lost it, right?

[00:39:05] So when you start asking Gabby, these parts are intricately involved in medication decisions and whether medications work, you know, the field talks about the placebo effect. Yeah. Consistently, 34 percent of people take a sugar pill and get an effect. Wow. The opposite is true with parts. They block it all the time.

[00:39:26] So you do have to work with parts and they're so helpful around this biology, psychology overlap is what I call it. Biology, psychology overlap. Yeah. Okay. Like, you know, it's not, this is true mind, body medicine, not like, let's say mind, body medicine, but let's not really do it. Right. Right. There are things that it is true mind, body medicine, true mind, body medicine, and parts need to be involved in the collaboration and the decision making process.

[00:39:59] And people don't ask them. Right. Right. And it goes so differently. Like I had one client. And she was dissociative. She was probably on, you know, called DDNOS, like not quite dissociative identity disorder, but very dissociative. We were trying to work with the dissociative part. And you use sometimes these antipsychotic medications like Abilify or Seroquel to help decrease the intensity of the dissociation.

[00:40:28] So it's a medication that we can use for dissociation. But if you give somebody a medication without the dissociative part agreeing, it's going to be a show inside, right? So this one part six to nine months working with this one part for the dissociative part to say, okay, I'm willing to take this medicine.

[00:40:47] I'm going to be in charge of when and how much and the part that was vigilantly terrified of sexual abuse said, we're only going to take it and sleep on the couch, not in the bed. Oh, beautiful. I was like, okay, fine. Right? Yes. Okay, fine. It's happening. Guess what? The med was taken. The med worked and everybody was okay with it.

[00:41:10] It wasn't resistance. There was no resistance. There was no blocking. You know, people get on polypharmacy. is crazy on six or eight meds. Who's doing what? And who's taking what? Right. So let me demystify this. Okay. So just for the listeners like, Whoa, okay. Uh, we have all these different parts of ourselves and particularly when it comes to trauma, we have these very strong protection mechanisms.

[00:41:34] In the case that you were just mentioning, there is this one woman who had a dissociative part that was really like, I couldn't let you get into any other Anything because it was so dissociative. You got it. And then there was the sexual trauma part that the dissociation was Protecting against hundred percent.

[00:41:49] Okay, so there was no therapeutic work to be done with the sexual trauma because the dissociation was so strong Yes, and so you wanted to use the medication to settle the dissociation, right? But you don't want to just medicate because if you don't get buy in from that part of that woman who's totally dissociated That's right.

[00:42:06] If she's not If that part of her isn't on board to take that medication, that's right. She could take that medication and the part of her that's so strongly held in the dissociation will fight the medication. Yes. And therefore the medication won't work. And in fact, we'll create more, more harm, harm, more.

[00:42:23] Okay. Okay. Really? Okay, great. So once, so it took six months for that dissociative part of her to get on board. Yes. And that's what's so f ing beautiful and brilliant about this model. And you said it earlier, it's, it's ask, don't do, right? It's not, what was it that you said? We're, it's collaboration. Yep.

[00:42:43] It's, it's working together as a team. Yep. It's a whole different paradigm. It's the opposite of trauma is the opposite. It's the opposite of trauma. So we're working together. It's asking permission. And then parts are like, Hey, I've got somebody on my team. Hey, I don't need to fight the mental health system.

[00:43:01] I don't need to fight insurance companies. I don't need to fight. We're working together. And this guy over here is doing it in the way that feels comfortable and safe for me instead of everybody else who's trying to change me or stop me. So I told you I did EMDR early on in my career and all this stuff and I, EMDR is super effective.

[00:43:23] Don't get me wrong. It wasn't relational enough. For me, i, f, s and E mdr R on another hand. Yes. Combination. That's killer. So killer, right? So killer, right. So, so for me, I am very relational and I needed a relational approach and this is, was like a no brainer for me to be working collaboratively with these parts that most people hate, that most clients hate collaboratively for the same goal.

[00:43:50] 'cause the, the offer constantly is. What if that part inside didn't feel hopeless anymore? What if that part doesn't feel alone? What if that part did feel love? Are you interested? Right? You're like, yes. And one of the most beautiful things I love about IFS is this concept of the hope merchant. Yes.

And, and I want to be that, you know, in many ways, like those of us who have, you know, access to self now after having lived experience of trauma and recovery, we can be the power of example, as they would say in 12 steps.

[00:44:25] And actually this is what I think is so brave, courageous about to be loved your memoir. And whenever those of us, any human writes a memoir about the journey of trauma, it is probably the most courageous act in the world. Because at the end of this, you have this ability to be able to say, well, now I'm in self.

[00:44:46] Yeah. And I have access to self. Right. And I can let self lead my internal family of parts. Yes. Yes. And so, to close this conversation, which we're Truly, I could probably do a three hour conversation with you. I mean, really, we just need to like get in our jammies and like have a sleepover because I love you.

[00:45:03] I want to hang out with you and Dick and I just want to like have like a full blown hangout. Yeah. Which I was talking to him about last night. I was like, just come play tennis with me. I miss you. I love this man so much. Saddened how I feel about you. Yeah. I actually think that is sort of the promise of IFS, which is that once you start to have that development of that axis of your truth, your self.

[00:45:23] Yes. And then self starts to develop more and more inside of you because these protection mechanisms have started to relax. Yes. There's more self that can come through. Yes. As we develop this self energy, what happens, and this is how I feel,

[00:45:41] I'm not even f ing kidding you. And how I feel about Dick is that, you know, while Dick has years on me or whatever, he feels like I'm hanging out with like a kid. Yes. Right? That's right. So it's like, yeah, this childlike. Yes. Innocence. Hopefulness. Yes. Positivity. Yes. It is the absolute true definition of manifesting because you return to the belief that you are free.

[00:46:04] Yes. You return to the internal source within you. That's right. We come here, my belief. We come here from source and it's quite a journey and it's quite a shock to the system to be in human form, right? And then we have all these experiences that block access to our source. Right? That's a trauma blocks love.

[00:46:29] And so it's the process of healing, releasing, transforming the trauma energy to get back to our authentic place. This is truly what I believe. I become more and more me every layer I shed. Right? That's right. It's what it is. It's like the human existence makes us not who we are because that's what we're here to learn.

[00:46:55] Yep. Right? I say we, we repair, we repress. Or we release, right? And so we can just keep repeating, repeating, we can repress it or we can repair it. Right. And I'm going to take every moment, a lifetime of moments to repair and release. That's the moment. That's the thing we should really take home is that this is, you're listening to us.

[00:47:21] We've had years of therapy. We've done, we've trained in IFS. You're this major therapist, psychiatrist, did IFS practitioner, and this huge man in the field. And so people might be like, well, they could think he got there or whatever. Bessel was his mentor. Dick is his mentor. Okay, great. Yes. But what you just said was everything.

[00:47:37] Yeah. It's those moment by moment. 100%. Subtle shifts that add up to the miraculous. And we're in this journey of unlearning the fears that we've learned from the world and remembering the love of who we are. Yeah. Period. Yes. That's right. When I released Transcending Trauma, I went for a run. One of the ways I access self energy is in nature, listening to music and running.

[00:48:01] Yes. Okay. I got this message. You're supposed to bring trauma healing to the world. And I was like, me, like, are you sure you got the right person? I was like, just me, Frank Anderson. Like, what are you talking about? And now this is some three or four years later. I understand what that means. I'm clear about that mission and it is about the moments and what we do with these moments that allows us.

[00:48:30] to transform and heal and really become bringing source energy to this world in this place. Okay. Yes. I, my mission now is taking all of this knowledge that I've learned and bringing it into the general public. That's right. That is what I'm doing. The there's not enough therapists in the world and there's too much trauma.

[00:48:52] And so my, really my purpose is translating and digesting this information for the general public. And this is a message teaching, teaching teachers, right? Because one of the things that's come through for me to Dick was staff up, Dick. Staff up because really, because there's, there's an opening, right?

[00:49:12] You're opening these spots, opening, people are ready. So we need, we need integrated, profound, the leader of trauma, IFS therapy, you. To train as many, not just therapists, coaches, therapists, as many people as possible, because so many people are being met with trauma. They have no clue how to handle it. I just opened the trauma Institute a month and a half ago, and it is exactly what you're talking about, right?

[00:49:39] I have an advisory board of every modality of psychotherapy for trauma, and I'm bringing people together to integrate trauma treatment and bring it to the next generation of healers and of the general public. That is my mission and Gabby, I am not doing this alone. No, it is a collective. It's a collaborative, right?

[00:49:59] And it is a spiritual collective. A hundred percent. A hundred percent. You know what? They're huge. You, you talk about your cocaine protector. Yeah. My protector was smart, smart, smart, smart, smart. That's all I was right. And I love that I have access now in a way that is so much easier and more relaxed to be able to bring this message to the world.

[00:50:24] You're a clear vessel to be able to hold the energy of what you're creating. I want to get behind every single thing that you're doing. Thank you. I want you on my speed dial. Yes. I don't want this conversation to end. I'm absolutely obsessed with you. I want everyone to go out and read To Be Loved, a memoir by Dr.Frank Anderson.

And this is, I love the subtitle, A Story of Truth trauma and transformation. Let me share one other thing before we close. It's okay. So if you look at the cover, you see all the stars on there. I just, so I go to my energy healer once a month. I see Ellen. She's in the book. She has helped transform my life.

[00:51:03] My dad passed. Him and I connected in a very profound way and she said, it's like he's sending stars of love down from the sky to you. And then a week later, the artist is what they did off that thing. And as soon as I saw the cover of that book, I was like, thank you. Right. Right. This is this collaborative, this whole chills.

[00:51:24] Right. Right. And I was like, thank you, dad. Like, we are doing this together. And we can thank him for being in service to you in the ways that when we are brought to our knees, we can crack open and become who we're here to be. Service to me and service to the world. That's right. Through me. I mean, his heart is so open.

[00:51:48] Yes. His heart is so open. The transformation in him. I knew that. Yeah. I knew he was. limited in human form. Yeah. And I knew his capacity would be different when he transitioned. Yeah. And so I have. He wants you to put the watch back on. Watch back on. Yeah. Yes. Going like this. Beautiful. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. I believe that.

[00:52:09] Yeah. Yeah. Because he's like, He's like, this is where our work begins. Yes. Yeah. And you know, my mom is slow to the table. She's still here and she's struggling, but he's helping me help her totally to be on board too. Cause she's not quite there yet, which is okay. Yeah. That's part of what I'm here for, but I love I love that message that he sent to you through, he sent to you to me because it's true.

[00:52:34] We're doing it together. A hundred percent. Yeah. This is absolutely beautiful. Everyone, please go buy this book to be loved a memoir by Frank Anderson and follow Frank. Oh my God. You are everything. Please come back on the show. Like 10 more times. I would love to. Really. I would love to. I'm entering this new world of the general public and you haven't, I will be a cat.

[00:52:55] I will be a juggernaut. To just, like, get you through. Yeah, well thank you because it's, it's got to be done together. It's got to be done. I'm going to, I'm going to crack open all the opportunities here. Beautiful. That's my vision for you. You are so special. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you.

[00:53:17] If you made it to the end of this episode, that means you're truly committed to miracles. I'm really proud of you. If you want to get more Gabby, tune in every Monday for a new episode. Make sure to subscribe so you don't miss any of the guidance or special bonus episodes. Your experience at this show means a lot to me, so I really want to welcome you to leave an honest review.

[00:53:36] And you can follow me on social media at Gabby Bernstein. And if you want to get in on the action, sign up for a chance to be Dear Gabby'd live at DearGabby. com. See you next week. Gabby. Gabby. Please note that this episode may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services.

[00:53:54] Individuals on the show may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services referred to in this episode.